...if you thought it was difficult for a resident and/or their family members to obtain information about a sanctioned nursing home's performance, try it from a Minister's perspective!...

Excerpt from: Official Committee Hansard, 20 Feb 2008 (Page 154-156)
In attendance: Senator McLucas, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health and Ageing; Ms Jane Halton, Secretary (Department of Health and Ageing); Mr Mark Brandon, Chief Executive Officer (Aged Care Standards and Accreditation Agency); Ms Carolyn Smith, First Assistant Secretary, Office of Aged Care Quality and Compliance; Senator Patterson

Senator PATTERSON—I would like to ask about the Murwillumbah Nursing Home. How many accreditation standards has that nursing home has failed, and what standards it has failed on?

Mr Brandon—The review audit at the Murwillumbah Nursing Home has only just been completed and they are still within their appeals period, so the matter is not resolved.

Senator PATTERSON—Initially, how many standards did they fail?

Mr Brandon—I think at the moment that remains protected information until it is able to be released at the completion of the appeals period.

Senator PATTERSON—Ms Halton, is that protected information?

Ms Halton—Yes, I think it is, Senator.

Senator PATTERSON—So if I have a relative in the Murwillumbah Nursing Home, I cannot find out how many standards that failed?

Ms Halton—I will confirm that, Senator. That is my understanding, but I will confirm that.

Senator PATTERSON—For how long is it protected information?

Mr Brandon—Under the process, the facility has a period in which they can apply for reconsideration.

Senator PATTERSON—When will that be up?

Mr Brandon—That will be up—

Senator PATTERSON—Let me pretend I am the daughter of somebody in the home. When will I know how many standards they failed and what is going to happen?

Mr Brandon—Senator, if you were the daughter of a resident of the home, my advice to you would be to talk to the owners of the home, because they would have a copy of the report and it is open for them to talk to you about it.

Senator PATTERSON—So we can advise the relatives that they will have access to that information. Is that what you are telling me?

Mr Brandon—You asked me what I would say. I would advise the relatives to talk to the owners of the home.

Senator PATTERSON—You advised me, as the daughter, to go to the home. Will I be able to get the information? Do not tell me if I cannot get the information. I do not know the answer to this. You tell me. Can I get the information, as a relative of a resident in the Murwillumbah Nursing Home?

Ms Smith—My understanding is that the approved provider has actually held meetings within the home with residents and has actually discussed the outcome of the agency’s—

Senator PATTERSON—And told them how many standards they failed?

Ms Smith—Certainly, in broad terms, they have discussed the outcome of the visit and what they are doing to address the issues that have been identified.

Senator PATTERSON—How long have they got before they have to meet those standards? Is there a deadline in time?

Mr Brandon—We made the decision on 8 February and, in accordance with the legislation—that is, the Accreditation Grant Principles 1999—they have 14 days in which to lodge an application for reconsideration.

Senator PATTERSON—The media reports say it will remain open for six months. Is that correct?

Mr Brandon—The period in which it could remain open is a matter for the department.

Senator PATTERSON—I am trying to clarify it, because there have been media reports that have said it will be open for six months. What measures are in place—and I should know this but I have forgotten—and what will happen now? Tell me, as the daughter of somebody who is in the nursing home, what I will expect so that we can tell the resident what to expect? They have now been told by the nursing home what has happened. What is the next process?

Mr Brandon—We would impose a timetable for improvement, which requires them to be compliant with all the standards by a set period of time.

Senator PATTERSON—When is that? Just tell me the date. I want to know. My mother is in the nursing home and I am desperate.

Mr Brandon—We are getting caught up in the protected information.

Senator PATTERSON—It is not protected information. I am the daughter and I want to know when the government is going to make the decision about whether they have failed or not failed and what is going to happen to my mum.

Mr Brandon—What I can tell you is that, as a matter of agency policy, we would normally impose a timetable for improvement of three months.

Senator PATTERSON—So what is the date?

Mr Brandon—In the normal circumstances—

Senator PATTERSON—Hang on, what is the date that you would expect the Murwillumbah Nursing Home to comply with the standards? Tell me the date.

Mr Brandon—I think the date is protected information, but I want to take advice.

Senator PATTERSON—No, it cannot be protected information. Ms Halton, just tell me. That cannot be protected information. I, as a relative, want to know what date I can be assured that I will know whether they have met the standards or not. That is a reasonable question.

Ms Halton—Yes. I would be surprised if that was protected, I have to say.

Senator PATTERSON—Thank you. So what is the date?

Ms Halton—Let us check.

Senator PATTERSON—I cannot believe we do not know.

Ms Halton—Is it protected? The date is protected.

Senator PATTERSON—The date cannot be protected information. This is nonsense!

CHAIR—Senator, maybe it would be useful to have this taken on notice.

Senator PATTERSON—No

Ms Smith—Senator, I think there is a distinction between what we are able to say in a public hearing at this point of the process, what will be made publicly available in due course once the provider’s appeal rights have finished, and what the provider is able to tell residents and their families as part of the process of keeping residents in their facility informed.

Senator PATTERSON—No. You have told me it is three months. When does the clock start and when does the clock finish? It is a simple question. What date is the nursing home expected to comply with the standards and requirements of the accreditation?

Mr Brandon—My response was that, in accordance with our policy, our normal period of timetable for improvement is three months.

Senator PATTERSON—You have told me three months. When does the clock start for that nursing home?

Mr Brandon—The clock starts when we make the review audit decision.

Senator PATTERSON—And when was that? With all due respect, Ms Murnane knew every nursing home in Australia when I used to ask questions nine years ago. This has been in the public arena. It is not something that has come as a shock to you. When did the clock start for that three months?

Mr Brandon—I think I said earlier that we made the decision on 8 February.

Senator PATTERSON—So 8 February plus three months. Is that a calendar three months or is it days in three months?

Mr Brandon—The normal period for a timetable improvement is three months from the day in which—

Senator PATTERSON—Calendar three months?

Mr Brandon—Yes, that was—

Senator PATTERSON—So now we know it is three months from 8 February. Simple! We could have had the answer to the question a little while ago. ‘Protected information,’ you told me. Mr Brandon, that is not good enough, with all due respect. We will be watching that date for what happens with the Murwillumbah Nursing Home. Thank you very much.

Senator McLucas—Could I just make the point, before we leave that, Senator, that the legislation that we are working on is the legislation that your government brought in.

Senator PATTERSON—That is fine. I know.

Senator McLucas—In fact, you were the minister.

Senator PATTERSON—No, I was not. I was the senior minister. I was not the Minister for Ageing. That was somebody else. But I just wanted to know the date. It was a simple question, not protected information, Senator McLucas.

CHAIR—Senators, in accordance with what we agreed earlier, that will end the questions on aged care, which is item 4. I know there are other senators who had questions that will have to be put on notice for aged care